Hanblecheya

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11/02/2015 12:31 pm  #1


The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

Should these ways be for sale? Should non natives be doing this? How has money corrupted these ways?

 

6/03/2016 2:18 pm  #2


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

Its like everything else man sees a way to make money he takes it,not thinking of the true value of what he is taking on,sweat lodges pow wows or anything else Native should in my opinion stay Native.this is where the new age comes in they cant get the satisfaction of the feeling by attending sweat lodges pow wows so they try to copy it. making them loads of money.it wouldnt be so bad if they gave some money back to the Native people from doing what they do,but they dont they keep it. i had a friend who owned a spiritulist shop it was doing well selling everything spiritual you could think of and selling Navajo jewlery that a buyer bought fom the reservation,one day a man came in asking for a headdress it had to be authentic,off the buyer goes back to the rez comes back with a headdress,i held that i said this is not authentic i was arguing with the buyer he said some navajos were short of money so they sold the only thing they had the headdress,ok i said if this is authentic why does it say made in china on the label,ive never seen anyone leave a shop so quick in my life,


The spoken word always comes back as whispers in the wind.
 

7/03/2016 5:41 pm  #3


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

I have mixed views on my reply. On one hand I feel as if I have no right to comment because I have not grown up in a Native culture. I have not had to grow up hearing about how my peoples had to be driven from their lands, massacred all in all with the destruction of their culture and much of their history. I have not had to live in poverty to the point where all I could do is sell crafts on the side of the road to "tourists" in order to buy food for my children.  On the other hand, I think that the selling of sacred objects, vision quests and sweat lodges should not be for sell. I can understand people having to pay for a retreat or something because of the lodging, food etc... but not for the actual process like the vision quest. In my POV the Spirit is free and so should its teachings to all; even those of non-Natives. We are all of the same feather. We are all human and this world's peoples have already intermixed SO much already that it saddens and angers me that we can not see eye to eye; no matter the religion, nationally, sex or color of our skin.

I see none of those things. All I see in a human is that they are human. That is all I personally need to know, I give everyone the same chance. Sure, it should be up to the discretion of  whomever conducts the vision quest if someone should do it or not because they may have negatively harmful intentions though I think that it shouldn't be based of whether they are non-Native or not.

I will admit, I am a white male. My ancestors could have been some of the ones who came over and did all those horrible things to any of the Natives of all the Americas but I must argue that yes, these things that were done to the Natives of all the Americas was beyond horrible but that I never did those things personally. I and all non-Natives today are innocent of those past charges; in my POV obviously. I can easily understand why others would disagree (thats my superpower; understanding others points of views to the point I am them).

In saying all of this I understand how blood ties races of humans together but this is the era where we can forget and forgive our past and move forward for a brighter tomorrow. Again, I can see how this hard for many because they can argue "Well your people never had to go through this" and you very well could be correct. All I am saying is that you should give ME a chance based off of my actions and words not off of something that my personal ancestors may or may not have done. I dream of a day where humanity can be joined as One with our many differences. This may be a fantasy of a dreamer but I would rather dream of a fantasy than live in a reality where segregation is the norm... in fact... its very tiring on me to live in a world where this is the norm...

Plus, what is the definition of non-Native? There are many of Native American heritage that do not follow the Native ways and then you have many who are not of Native heritage that may not follow the ways 100% but I would argue that many are on the path of wanting to learn and are actively trying to learn. I personally am one of those people.

HAHA I may have gone too overboard on this but I get fired up when talking about segregation of any kind! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

 

7/04/2016 3:57 pm  #4


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

I am a celt which means that i am part of the celtic Nation which are the Welsh Irish and Scotish,but i also have Native blood in my veins, what annoys me so much it makes me angry,is when books are written and dont tell the truth of what actually happened in history, they gloss over the truth because it wouldnt show those who did actually take part in a good light,i have lived many life times and i do remember what happened and it wasnt pretty believe me,i have a good memory and i used to tell my grandmother things that she could remember,no one knew how i knew but its an innerknowing thats so deep inside me it makes me who i am.my family went to patigonia in the 1800 s,from there they went into Arizona  and beyond,and i do not believe in the selling of the Native ways as far as im concerned they are sacred.

 Namaste

 


The spoken word always comes back as whispers in the wind.
 

7/05/2016 1:29 pm  #5


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

Native spirit wrote:

I am a celt which means that i am part of the celtic Nation which are the Welsh Irish and Scotish,but i also have Native blood in my veins, what annoys me so much it makes me angry,is when books are written and dont tell the truth of what actually happened in history, they gloss over the truth because it wouldnt show those who did actually take part in a good light,i have lived many life times and i do remember what happened and it wasnt pretty believe me,i have a good memory and i used to tell my grandmother things that she could remember,no one knew how i knew but its an innerknowing thats so deep inside me it makes me who i am.my family went to patigonia in the 1800 s,from there they went into Arizona  and beyond,and i do not believe in the selling of the Native ways as far as im concerned they are sacred.

 Namaste

 

There is a quote that I was always fond of... not for pleasure and in remembrance of something good but as a reminder. The victors write/rewrite history... I bet there is a lot that is being covered up or which has been altered to the point that it becomes impossible to distinguish it from the truth.

 

7/05/2016 2:59 pm  #6


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

So much has been lost through time. Only fragments remain. Who can now say, who is right, when so much has been lost?

     Thread Starter
 

7/05/2016 3:26 pm  #7


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

To me my peoples ways are sacred and are not and never should be for sale, to much over the years has been taken / stolen and the adapted and used to make money. Any medicine work that I do is freely given to who ever the individuals are that need it.

I don't advertise what I do if anything I do my best to stay under the radar, so those who do find and come to me for help are in need of it. All they provide for this is the Sage, Sweet Grass, Ceder and Tobacco and any other items needed for the work. I make no charge and ask for nothing in return, though if someone chooses to gift me something for my time as an exchange I except. Nine times out of ten anything that comes to me like that is given away to those who need it anyway.

Over here I have to say I do see a lot of things happening a while back there was a sweat lodge run over here one weekend by a man who flew in from Germany. He held 2 days sweats, they paid for a day in the sweat lodge and a day doing other medicine things with them. For this he charged €350,00 per head and on each day he had 45 people in that sweat lodge at one time. I'll leave you to do the math on how much he made that weekend and where that money went because it certainly wasn't back to any NDN nation.

There are a few other NDN medicine carriers form various nations living in this country and at least from the one's who I know we have had people from these sweats turn up  and ask for help from us.

I don't have any issues with though selling craft work etc, after all we all have to eat n pay bills. I for instance make traditional drums and do the artwork on them. But I make 2 sorts the 1st for medicine work and the other just as a craft because people like to, hang them on the wall or use them and have some fun.  These drums are made in very different ways.

The medicine drums I make for others, they cover the initial costs for the materials and my work etc is done for free. I did check with my elders before hand that I could do this and they agreed to it.

Maikan
 

Last edited by Maikan (7/05/2016 3:35 pm)


Religion is for people who are afraid of hell......
Spirituality is for those who have already been there......


 
 

7/05/2016 5:27 pm  #8


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

I agree that people who are not Native or know the ways should be holding sweat lodges or anything else for that matter,there is a place here about 50 miles from here called Teeppe valley the field is full of them,they have furs inside and they hold up to eight people,they hold different things there but a Native does come and take them the charge,for this is included in the renting of the teeppe,
 i am another  that doesnt advertise what i do i never have,people come to me through word of mouth i never charge either.my grandmother taught me many moons ago that you never tell people what you do and another thing she told me was she would never have her photograph taken because it takes a piece of your soul away,thats one thing im happy about because i wont have my photo taken at all i hide behind everyone else,having it done when i had my cap and gown was torture.

Namaste

 


The spoken word always comes back as whispers in the wind.
 

7/05/2016 10:46 pm  #9


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

I have a working sweat lodge here its one that was set up with a Cree Medicine carrier who's a good friend and visits here from time to time. I have also earn't the rights to have my own lodge but felt more comfortable sharing this one with another medicine carrier.

The whole are is zoned off so that the horses etc can't get into it and its used roughly 4 times a year. We have one person that works with us and he can also use this lodge he's not Native but the work he does with us means its there for him and him alone to use with us if need be. At most we only have x4 people in that lodge and its run properly.

I have been asked many times by friends and locals if they could rent it off me so they can do a workshop and a sweat but always politely decline there requests and explain my beliefs are traditional to my people and as such are not for sale.
 


Religion is for people who are afraid of hell......
Spirituality is for those who have already been there......


 
 

7/08/2016 11:02 am  #10


Re: The selling of the Sweat Lodge and Vision Quest.

The Sweat Lodge, has been sold out to many times. If one is non-native then they should say it is a non-native sweat. Then they can apply any ritual they want, or call it a sauna. Same with the Vision Quest. Having more than a few people in a Sweat is crazy. It can be dangerous as what happened in Sedona.

     Thread Starter
 

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